Does a ’gay’ softball team need a homo-quota?

Monday Sep 8, 2008

The enforcement in last month's Gay World Series in Seattle of a seldom enforced rule limiting softball teams to no more than two heterosexual players has resulted in an appeal of one team's disqualification and a question about why such a rule still exists.

D2, a team from San Francisco, beat the Atlanta Mudcats in the series to qualify for the A Division championship game against the Los Angeles Vipers. But the Mudcats filed a protest, alleging that six of D2's players were straight. North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance (NAGAA) rules state a team in the series may have no more than two straight players on its squad. A review indicated that four of the six players were straight, D2 was disqualified, the championship was awarded to the Vipers, and the Mudcats and other teams which finished behind D2 all moved up a notch in the standings.

San Francisco Gay Softball League Commissioner Vincent Fuqua said the team was appealing the disqualification, and he hoped the matter would be resolved this month.

As of press time, NAGAA Commissioner Roy Melani had not commented on the disqualification or the appeal. The official Gay World Series, web site, gave no indication of the disqualification other than to show the Vipers finishing in first, the Mudcats finishing in second, the Phoenix Toros in third, and the Atlanta Venom and Houston Force in fourth.

Fuqua, who said he does not think a discriminatory ban against heterosexuals should exist, said the sexuality of the players was judging by asking players questions.

"My understanding," Fuqua said, "is they were read a definition of what a homosexual person was and what a gay person was. How they responded was used to determine whether they were gay or straight. Not one person when they responded ever actually said they were straight. These were not new players; they had played in six Gay World Series already. As long as I've been involved with NAGAA, nobody before has been disqualified."


  • , 2008-09-09 05:13:35

    Surely a ’gay’ sports team should be a team where a gay man or woman can take part in a sport without having to hide sexuality. If we in the gay community are rightly asking for ’inclusion’, then so-called ’gay’ sports team should embrace straight people who wany to join the club and play. The bottom line is that this case is all about discrimination of straight people. Does a team of straight people have a competitive advantage over a team of gays? The answer is ’no’. This reeks of ’flying handbags’!

  • , 2008-09-09 08:30:10

    At that level of play straight players are recruited to play on the team. At the lower levels the straight guy is normally of some relation to someone on the team or the best friend of someone. The league is designed for gay men and women to play together. The rules permit straight players but maintains the goal that the league is for gay men and women. There is no discrimination as straight players are allowed. A rule is a rule and it was clearly violated (yes I was there, no I did not play in the A division and yes someone clearly knew the men in question as straight men). The SF team deliberately violated the rule to win the tournament. They put winning over the purpose of the league. Shame on San Francisco, the team and the commissioner of the league. They (the commissioner, the team and the league) has lost the respect of many members of league.

  • , 2008-09-09 10:56:09

    Amazing that anyone would defend a rule that discriminates by setting a quota. Would you accept a parallel rule in mainstream sports? The ’purpose’ of the league and all queer sports should not be about having gay players, but about having a place that is safe for gay players to compete and a universal tolerance throughout: acceptance, not queerness, should be the standard. And no, the team did not put winning above inclusion. Thes eplayers have played in previous series; it was only when they did well did suddenly people freak and put winning (without winning on the field) above inclusion (by excluding longtime supporters).

  • , 2008-09-09 11:52:33

    I have to say, I have been on both sides of this issue as a coach in the gay league. I have had a team with 6 straight guys. While our league was ok with it, I know that if I went to the World Series that I was limited to 2. I have always thought it was hypocritical of us. If there are straight people who want to play in a gay league, then let them play. So long as they do not demean the gay players or the league, they are welcomer to play. However, there also needs to be some sort of compromise here - after how many years can we allow these straight players to no longer be considered straight for the purposes of this rule. After 6 years, surely we can say that they have been around long enough and shown enough to no longer be counted as straight but just as any other member of the league? Or are they always to be relegated to 2nd class membership in our league?

  • , 2008-09-09 14:25:09

    I’ve played in the gay softball league for 10-years. You see teams being "stacked" with straight players all the time. It’s a strategy that is used more often in tournaments. The sad part is seeing gay players that worked all season to get to the tournament being benched so that the straight players have more time on the field.

  • , 2008-09-09 15:19:05

    First, it should be clarified that Seattle was just the "host" city for this tournament, it was not the organization that made the rule or enforced it. NAGAAA, which is comprised of all of the cities involved (including San Francisco) vote and agree to these rules. Secondly, limiting participation to individuals that fit a particular classification is not new. There are "women only" tournaments, there are tournaments that are for "Native Americans", there are age restrictions that are enforced at some tournaments. (Senior Tournaments for 40/50 and older, Youth tournaments for 18 and under..) The list goes on and on...many of them completely EXCLUSIVE. I think that if you look at this from a different angle you’ll realize that, while straight players are welcome, (although it is in a more limited number) part of this event is about ’community’ and celebrating sports with your fellow gay/lesbian athletes. Not filling teams with straight folks that will bench the gay players - and leave them at home for this amazing annual event. (Please don’t confuse that with "straight players are always better") As a participant of this event for several years, I have to say, that it being a ’gay event’ (sponsored by many gay businesses in the local area - and gay friendly national businesses) is one of the great reasons why I choose to spend my vacation time and dollars to attend the GSWS. There are certainly other week long tournaments that you could attend, but that does not offer the same feeling or sense of community or pride. (Think - gay cruise vs. non-gay cruise or vacation in a ’gay friendly city’ vs. small town "red state" city.) Plain and simple, it’s just not unusual to have a national/local or regional event to celebrate a portion of society. This one just happens to be the glbt softball community. Finally, I think that using the excuse that "no one has been disqualified before" is a pretty sad excuse. The rules were there way before anyone from the D2 team bought a ticket. They rolled the dice (as I’m sure others did) bit they got caught - man up and accept your concequences for breaking the rules that were in place.It’s not as if NAGAAA hides it’s affiliations. It’s the North American GAY Amature Athletic Association that puts on the GAY Softball World Series each year.

  • , 2008-09-09 16:09:09

    The question of straight people on gay teams, especially in softball, has been debated ad infinitum. It seems to me that gay sports leagues have a right to set the rules for their leagues. Certainly the "gay" world series needs to have a "gay" flavor in order to have its own identity and purpose. Once you accept this theory, then it’s a quick hop, skip and jump to a numerical "limit" (not a "quota" because you don’t have to have 2 straight people - you just can’t have more than 2).Of course, if you don’t accept that the "gay" world series has to be "gay" then you’d find the rule, and the penalties, to be wrong. But I have to say that politically correct "we’re all the same" tends to break down in a competitive environment. Believe me ... the SF "D2" team didn’t put the straight guys on the team because they were all feeling ooey-gooey-lovey about "we’re all the same." They picked players based upon ability regardless of the rules. They got caught violating a rule they had agreed to by participating in the tournament.There are other rules also. Teams are broken into four divisions and players are all rated. Some cities tend to deflate player ratings to stack teams. Also, you can’t put together a team of the best players from around the country. Each team has to be comprised of players only from the geographic region represented by the NAGAAA affiliate. Also, each team has to be formed - at the core (7 players) from a team that has competed together in a member league’s season. That keeps NAGAAA Affiliates from just putting together the best 12 players from a city and sending them in, or from random people showing up to compete. All of these rules make sense to me, even if sometimes they are executed awkwardly.This was my first Gay World Series. It’s very competitive. Two teams in "D" were disqualified for stacking their teams with players whose ratings had been artificially deflated to qualify for "D" and another team had their best player kicked out. Everyone knows the rules going in - EVERYONE. In fact, when we first arrived, all people in "D" could talk about was how the Atlanta and Houston teams were either cheating or trying to get someone else kicked out for cheating. From what I can tell, some cities bend and break the rules more than others - Atlanta has apparently had this reputation for years and years. I guess it’s no coincidence that of the 3 teams kicked out, one was from Atlanta and the other two challenges were initiated by Atlanta.So, while this story doesn’t make for good politics for a community that wants equality, as one writer above noted there are clearly reasons that the rules exist. Of course the San Francisco "D2" people will ride this one politically because their team was the one caught breaking the rule. But they knew the rules, they WERE asked if they straight during the challenge and at least 3 said "yes." Break the rule, suffer the consequence. Dislike the rule, try to change it, but don’t whine about being caught when you knew the rule going in.

  • , 2008-09-09 16:49:05

    I think there is an aspect of this story that hasn’t been accurately depicted in this story. The LA Vipers were not award the NAGAAA "A" Division Championship because of this protest. The Vipers played D2 in the Championship game from the winners bracket and defeated them to win the NAGAAA "A" Division Championship. They weren’t award the Championship due to this protest. If there were no protest then the D2 team would have taken 2nd Place. This protested resulted in giving the Atlanta Muddawgs 2nd Place versus 3rd Place, and the Atlanta Venom & Houston Force 4th Place instead of 5th Place. Everyone needs to give the LA Vipers their due credit - they won the NAGAAA "A" Division Championship outright.

  • , 2008-09-09 17:11:15

    I am a long time member of NAGAAA having played in the past 14 World Series. I have never supported this rule restricting the number of straight players on a team. NAGAAA has a process that involves all it’s member cities where such a rule can be changed. Dropping this straight player restriction has been discussed and voted on several times over the years and motions to eliminate it have never been successful. In addition to the restriction of no more then (2) straight players on a team they used to also have a restriction that if a straight player where new to a member league that they could not play in on a World Series team until they had played in their 2nd season with that league. They basically weren’t allowed to play on a World Series team the first year they played in a member city league. A motion was made at NAGAAA’s Winters meetings to eliminate this rule of having to wait a year to play on a World Series and it passed and that restriction was dropped - the 2008 World Series was the first World Series without the waiting one year rule. This showed some progress with the NAGAAA membership related to straight restrictions.Again I do not favor having a straight restrictions. ASANA which is the Women’s World Series organization does not have a restriction on straight players and the Gay Games also does not have a restiction on straight athletes. Most of the straight players that play in my league are usually friends and family members of other gay players. I don’t think dropping the straight restrtiction would even change the make up of teams at the World Series. All that being said though - there is a rule resticting the number of straight players and until that rule is changed teams have to abide by it or pay the consequences. I’m sure at the 2009 Winter Meetings this will again will be dicussed - I’m hopeful that the membership might feel beter about dropping this restiction now but we’ll see.

  • , 2008-09-09 17:26:41

    My understanding is that these players have played regularly in the past with D2; they were not pasted on in an attempt to change the nature of the team.Second, it is ridiculous (and libelous) to assume that the presence of more straight players on a team than the rules permit indicates anyone was "cheating." Cheating implies an attempt to break a rule to gain a competitive advantage. From my conversations with the players, it was clear that they were merely trying to show the obsolete nature of a rule that once served a useful purpose. We should be politically savvy and sensitive enough to recognize the difference between cheating and protest.Third, yes, the Vipers beat D2. It was D2’s only loss in the double elmination tournament. They played back in by beating the Mudcats and had the right to play the Vipers for the title or at the very least the right to be recognized for the games they won that were not protested.Finally, many many many gay sports events have existed for years without excluding or limiting straight competitors. The Gay Games, for a prime example, have never placed limits on the number of straights allowed; the very nature of their "Particip[ation, Inclusion, Personal Best" mission prohibits that. Excluding straights merely precludes the ability of the participants who do compete to know they have competed against the best.

  • , 2008-09-09 18:11:24

    Well lets see, Anonymous at 17:26:14... first you say it is "libelous" to say they were cheating (tee hee - love it when we all use lawyer-speak). But then you say that they purposefully put players on the team that were in violation of the rules (which, to me is the definition of cheating) for some noble purpose. Couldn’t they have done that with a "D" team or their 2nd "B" team that wasn’ in contention and then invited a protest? Of course not - because the purpose of having the best players (gay or straight, rules be damned) was to be competitive, not to challenge an archaic rule. So ... with this insider knowledge (which I’m guessing NAGAAA will see), it seems as if the story is a different one. Fuqua seems to be suggesting that the process by which they were determined to be straight was flawed, but now you say they all KNEW they were violating the rules. Fuqua also then admitted that SF has violated the rules for 6 years. What a shame. Perhaps NAGAAA should sanction SF’s league for blatant disregard of their rules for that long.

  • , 2008-09-09 21:08:12

    Seems to me that this all boils down to two questions:1. Is the two-hetero rule itself discrimination and therefore wrong/illegal/etc.? Not likely.2. Even if the two-hetero rule is defensible, has it outlived its usefulness, and should it therefore be repealed? Reasonable people can disagree, but I think it’s time for change.To my mind, the Gay Games offers an instructive counter-example to NAGAAA. Gay Games has no requirement whatsoever about the sexuality of its participants. Zip. Zero. Nada.In fact, the Women’s Divisions of the Gay Softball World Series, which is governed by a completely separate sanctioning body (ASANA) has no sexuality test either.But the two-hetero rule still applies in the Open Division (which although predominantly male, is open to women). There are several reasons why NAGAAA hasn’t evolved:1. NAGAAA’s committee structure makes it slow to change. Despite lukewarm efforts from some cities, the voting members guiding the league tend to be significantly older than the players. And among this group is a solid core of old-school thinking about preserving the exclusively gay heritage of the event.2. For some reason, organizers almost never use the word "gay" to describe the event. Yes, it’s widely known in LBGT circles as the Gay Softball World Series. But this year, for instance, I don’t think a single piece of the official merchandise displayed either a rainbow, nor the word "gay". T-shirts say either "Series 2008", "NAGAAA World Series", or some such thing. Mainstream media attention in host cities is discouraged, banners and displays in the events host hotels (or other places in potentially general-public view) oddly omit "gay" in favor of "NAGAAA" or "GSWS" at every turn. It’s an old-school closet mentality and a victim mindset.3. The roots of the GSWS are recreational and athletic, as opposed to the Gay Games, which were formed in large part as a political statement. Truly, the first several tournaments, which started in the 1970s and pre-dates the Gay Games, were small events contested by just a few cities. As such, the "just for us" mindset is the heritage of the league. Not a bad thing, but a stale mindset considering the broader social change in the 32 years since the first World Series.To my mind, the two-hetero rule is an ancient relic that needs to change. I’d like to see the group more directly embrace the word "gay" and use rainbow imagery in its promotions.But alas, NAGAAA and the GSWS will likely retain it’s two-hetero rule until significant political pressure is placed on the league and its sponsors - Coors and Aquafina (Pepsico).

  • , 2008-09-10 00:06:02

    I was present at the hearing/meeting that resulted in the D2 team being disqualified from the Gay Softball World Series. In my opinion, the committee made the correct decision based on its current set of rules and guidelines for eligibility in the Open Division. Right, Wrong, or indifferent, the rules state you can ONLY have 2 identified str8 players on your active roster. At the hearing, it became clear by either the answers that were given or not given that the committee had to conclude that there were more than 2 on the D2 team, and therefore had to disqualify them. The players in question were given the following definintion for str8/heterosexual-PREDOMINANTLY having a sexual interest in someone of the opposite sex. They were also given the following definition: homosexual-PREDOMINANTLY having a sexual attraction for somoene of the same sex. Each player was asked which of the two definitions he identified with, and were told they could NOT identify with both because of the word PREDOMINANTLY. Some of the players may be bi-sexual, or even gay, but non willing to announce that at this time. As NAGAAA moves forward, I hope it will be sensitive to how it wants (or doesn’t want) to include "gay-friendly", and bi-sexual, and even "closeted gay" individuals in its tournaments.One thing is for certain. As long as we call it the Gay Softball World Series, there has to be a way to identify, and insure that the players in the tournament are PREDOMINANTLY gay, however that is defined in the future. It’s great that a city or a team may want to participate in this great tournament. But they should remember that its titled "GAY" for a reason, and the players on the field should always be PREDOMINANTLY Gay.

  • , 2008-09-10 03:27:26

    Many questions should be asked of the NAGAAA Board and it’s membership should table this for every meeting leading to the next GSWS. I’ve never heard of this rule until this WS; how obnoxious! Sure, every sport, league, whatever, has the right to modify rules as they see fit, but determining whether a person is gay or straight is pretty subjective, no? What makes the NAGAAA Board qualified to make such a ruling? Are they ALL gay? Why should softball players have to prove they are gay to play? Not gay enough because you are PREDOMINANTLY attracted to the opposite sex? Gee, I guess being, bi, bi-curious, transsexual, etc. could also warrant an eligibility protest. I have yet to find anything in the Series rules given to the managers regarding a sexual preference protest, only for ratings or rule interpretation. Is it the "Open" Division or not? How is questioning someone’s sexual identity relevant to playing softball? I doubt NAGAAA’s decision would fly for long, if at all, if applied in the real world and likely would be grounds for legal action in most settings. Does being straight somehow automatically mean you’re that much better than a gay player? I discovered my gay softball league 17 years ago, have now played in 7 GWS and have seen some incredibly great players that I always assume are gay - timely hitting, home runs, awesome defensive skills and good game sense do not belong only to the ’straight’. Unless a player’s behavior, words or actions are anti-(gay) community, inclusion shouldn’t be so difficult to accept. The few self-identified straight players I know are not only gay-friendly, but are often co-workers and family friends that enjoy playing in our league for many of the same reasons we do - it’s fun AND competitive!Wasn’t the whole reason gay leagues developed was because we were not accepted in so-called ’straight’ softball leagues? The NAGAAA rule smells of hypocrisy. I don’t think you get to keep your non-profit status when you discriminate and it really looks like (small) sour grapes when, because your team is losing, you file an eligibility protest in the 6th inning of a softball game. Woo-hoo, what a satisfying way to win! Would the Atlanta team still protest if they were winning and suspected they were beating a bunch of straight players? I think not. Maybe those making the decision to exclude/disqualify/remove a team or teams should re-examine their personal feelings and motivations for enforcing this rule this time and not in previous WS.At the very least, someone’s got some explaining to do...

  • , 2008-09-10 10:19:10

    Back in the pre-DADT 1980s, I had a lover in the Air Force who wanted to stay in the SAir Force but was tired of having to keep his life secret. He told the officers he was gay; they said you’re saying that just to get out of the service. He said no, I want to stay in, I just don’t want to lie. To ’prove’ to their satisfaction, they had me go in and they asked me about how we had sex, what we did, who did what, etc. It was incredibly invasive and annoying and I told them so, that they were blind to having a man of character with a great award-winning service record and they should understand he was telling the truth and they should let him say. Of course, they didn’t. In any event, the process is essentially the same -- butt into somebody’s private life with personal questions for the purpose of rooting them out to keep your unit ’pure.’ This strikes me as eerily like the rule and process with the series. News flash: this ain’t the 20th century any more. Move into the millennium!

  • , 2008-09-10 12:22:04

    NAGAAA actually REMOVED the question asking the player their sexual orinetation on their registration a few years back since they were told they are NOT allowed to ask. If these players have played in the past and it hasn’t been a issue why should it be now? If Atlanta had won their game with D2 would this discussion even be taking place?

  • , 2008-09-10 15:26:44

    Here’s the str8 (and narrow?) view.I’ve been proud to play in my local gay league for 15 years. My first GSWS (1994) I was advised not to butch it up too much because unlike Toronto, some US cities looked upon straight players as "sandbaggers". We had 4 straights, no superstars, just guys happy to have found friendship, competition and craziness.This was my 5th GSWS, and one of the most fun Series I’ve had. Why? Because of all the quality people I went with, and met. These trips help bring us closer together (no, not that way). Re: D2If they sandbagged, toss them. If, however, these were guys who have been on the team for years, and play for the fellowship and competition, then isn’t that the essence of "inclusive"? How do you prove one or the other? I don’t know. I don’t know what it’s like to be discriminated against for decades. Come to think of it, I don’t want to find out now!Thanks for another great experience. See you in 2009rs

  • , 2008-09-10 15:57:06

    Why are we talking about the Gay/Straight thing exclusively in regards to tournaments/leagues that have what many are calling "discriminatory rules"?Why aren’t we asking about the "Women’s Only Leagues?" (Gender Discrimination) What about the "Men’s Only Leagues?’ (Gender Discrimination)What about the rules that govern "Co-ed" leagues? (Gender Discriminiation) What about tournaments that require a player to be 50 years or older? (Age Discrimination)What about the tournaments that require you to be 18 or under? (Age Discrimination) What about the tournament that asks me for the card that identifies me as Native American? (Race Discrimination)What about the rule that says I can’t be a B level player and play in the D division with my friends? (Skill Discrimination?)What about limiting who can play because of where they live. (I.E. "Have to be a state resident to play in the state finals") (geographic discrimination?) :O) The point is, EVERY tournament that I have EVER played in - Metro/GSWS/Local/National, etc - has rules, that if looked at, can be easily identified as some sort of exclusivity/discrimination. By the way, Gay Games does have sports catagories by gender and age - if this is supposed to be the 21st century and everyone wants to compete "against the best" why seperate people by divisions, gender or skill level? Seems to me that this (GSWS, Womens or Men’s Nationals, Senior Tournaments- and all the others) are an ideal way to bring groups of people together that share a common community (or interest). If y’all wanna argue it - why not look outside of the little gay/straight box (NAGAAA)and talk about making sweeping changes across all sports.

  • , 2008-09-10 16:15:35

    If you play softball then you know straight people can play anywhere in the country without a problem. If you are gay you have to be very careful in straight leagues and you hear all kinds of gay jokes over and over. Softball is not the sport of the upper class. This is just a fact. I play in many leagues..i would imagine most that are commenting are not players.Atlanta just did what everyone else talked about for years. The BOTTOM line is there are rules that the other teams followed THEREFORE D2 deserved to be kicked out for breaking the rules. That is a lack of respect for all others. There is nothing wrong with the 2 person rule. If you allow many more than the whole league will become straight and the whole idea of safety and comfort in playing a sport will be lost. It is just a fact. You guys say move into the new millenium..i say be realistic about what you are talking about. This is not your typical place where gays are treated equally...softball is flat out a sport where a lot of ignorant people with no sense of equality gather. A guy with any kind of feminine characteristics is not welcome in 99 percent of the straight leagues unless he is willing to hear hurtful things and perhaps be in physical danger. That is the bottom line. The holier than though bull.... normally comes from people who do not play or really understand that situation. D2 cheated..they got caught...don’t blame anyone except those that Cheated.

  • , 2008-09-10 16:47:23

    In Toronto, Ontario, Canada, a member of good standing within NAGAAA, this situation is a non-starter because, thankfully, our laws make it illegal to discrimate. The Ontario Human Rights Code is a law that provides for equal rights and opportunities and recognizes the dignity and worth of every person in Ontario. The Code makes it against the law to discriminate against someone or to harass them because of their sexual orientation or their same-sex partnership status. "Same-sex partnership status" means living with a person of the same sex in a conjugal relationship. A person cannot be treated unequally or subjected to harassment because he or she is gay, lesbian, heterosexual or bisexual. It is also illegal to discriminate because someone is in a same-sex relationship. I do believe that Toronto has continually voted against this bizarre two-straight-player-quota system in NAGAAA World Series’. We have our faults in Canada, but we are one of very few countries in the world that prevents discrimination of any kind, regardless of sexuality. Our gay softball league in Toronto is open to everyone. Our third place team in our top division has six straight players. The top team has two straight players and fourteen gay players. We are very proud of all of our gay/lesbian friends and of our straight friends. We are so fortunate that we can marry the person of our choice, whether we are straight or gay. Our beliefs extend to all aspects of our lives, including sports.

  • , 2008-09-10 16:48:23

    I have been involved in the NAGAAA World Series tournaments for over 21 years. I have also been involved in the local sports organization for a similar time. This issue has been a problem for most of that time. I know the San Francisco team, and also know that they have been at the forefront of developing a team to win at all costs. The players in question do not want to interact with LGBT community. They just want to win trophies. The purpose of the NAGAAA organization is to provide a safe, friendly and competitive environment for gay individuals to play softball. If there are gay friendly people who want to play in the member leagues there are provisions for this. There are provisions for this in the NAGAAA world series. Gay people should be playing softball and not be set on the bench so a better? straight player(s) can play. This is a gay organization! I believer many of the previous comments have covered the issue of discrimination and I do not need to repeat their arguments. The rules should not be changed. Keep the Gay World Series a gay sporting event.

  • , 2008-09-10 18:18:02

    I do play in the A division and have played against this team for the past several years. Rules are rules, but I do agree that excluding people is the last thing that we want to do. However, I have read all of these comments that people have been making defending this SF team and their straight players, saying "shame on NAGAAA" and so on. Well, all of you should know the whole story and all the facts. They have had these guys for years, knowingly cheating while other teams, while probably disagreeing with the rules, have followed them with integrity. If you have played in the A division against these guys, you would know that these straight guys do not endear themselves to the tournament and other teams. In fact, they walk around year after year in their own little group not socializing at all. That is what is the problem. I think all the A teams would look the other way if these guys even acted like they wanted to be there. I have played against them almost every year and have not even had a conversation with any of them. I am glad NAGAAA had some integrity and tossed them out. I’ll bet nobody misses them or remembers them. If you are going to cheat SF, at least bring some straight guys that actually like the gay community.

  • , 2008-09-11 03:45:09

    Many thanks to Hartwell(Houston Force)and Kitchen (Atlanta Mudcats). Since obviously they could not win on the field they had to engineer a win by attacking the D2 team. Clearly taken it like sore losers, and horrible sportsmanship. Atlanta was asked if they had won would they have protested they said "PROBABLY NOT" at last years WS Hartwell (Houston Force) "I lost some good friends from protesting but I believe in doing the right thing" Hartwells words. In that same breathe we (houston) won the series in 07’ so my team begged me not to protest. That in itself let’s you know he’s full of crap!!! if you believed in doing the right thing why didn’t you, go ahead with 07 protest? That message is very clear if they can not win on the field they’ll just protest. D2 has been playing with the same guys for many, many years, and now they are finally winning everyone has a problem. You didn’t protest them when they were losing. What’s the real motivation??? Why should D2 endear themselves to other teams when they are subject to protest. The Atlanta A’s threaten protest as well a few years ago because they lost, thanks to (Deke). But the commissioner at the time had balls enough to shut that down. D2 will be missed and remembered, especially by Atlanta. As we all agree a rule is a rule, just as others have stated their is nothing asking for teams to indicate their players sexually preference. After all we are here to play softball right? not worry about what people do in their bedrooms. Secondly if the Straight leagues had a rule saying gay teams could not play in their tournaments, you queens would be all over that, so what’s the difference? Actually NAGAAA didn’t facilitate the meeting Hartwell (Houston Force) lead the meeting. The NAGAAA reps just sat back and let all this madness happened. One NAGAAA rep went as far to ask one of the D2 players how long he’s dated his girlfriend. You can not ask anyone that(GO LA) The most blatant and very obvious is a white player and a african american player both answered their questions the same way, and received two different votes. GO FIGURE!!!! Their was about 30 people in this room with everyone having free rein at these guys. Their are alot of "A" teams with straight guys and more then two straight guys PHX Torso, Houston Force, Atlanta. and we all know for years the LA Stray cats had a team full but, no one protested them. WHY???? So what’s really going on NAGAAAA??? If we want to take it a little further take a look at who’s being protested??? that will be a eye opener for you. During the Seattle "A" Division meeting NAGAAA wanted to know how can they build the "A" division. I say protest more if teams can’t win. The first responds was allow more straight guys, it was immediately shut down. But not without Hartwell(Houston Force) having his say of course. For all of those sitting back judging this team make sure your house is in order because I can assure you it’s not. I’ve always been told the "Emptiest wagon makes the most noise" If asking people a question and basing their sexuality off of the way the question was answered proves a person is gay or straight is crazy. So because these guys don’t hang out with you, doesn’t speak for the other A teams. These guys have socialized with my A team, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your team. Rather then saying this team cheated, the question should be what can we do to fix it the situation or do we want to fix it or do we want to continue down this path of being soar losers. Not only is D2’s integrity in question so is every "A" team out their.

  • , 2008-09-11 12:19:03

    A note about the "compartmentalization" of other sporting events and why they do not pertain here. Women’s leagues exist to create more opportunities in which they can safely compete with their peers. In most sports, women can if they wish compete as women in men’s (which are really open) leagues if they want to and have what it takes. Thus we have had women in minor league baseball, women in PGA tour events and so forth. Same thing with age-based events: they are recognition of physical advantages/disadvantages of that particular age group, but they do not restrict those participants from entering open events. The PHYSICAL INEQUALITY between the ’restricted’ group (such as seniors, women, etc.) is acknowledged, it is acknwoledged that having people from outside those groups would imperil the chance of the group participants from competing safely or competing at all. But if the LGBT sports movement has done nothing else, it has proven that we are NOT physically and inherently different in terms of athletic ability. And since the entire thrust of the LGBT rights movement has been to demand equality and death to discriminatory barriers, the straight limitation i softball, tho once serving a useful purpose to achieve critical mass of participants, now serves as a deterrent to equality and acceptance.

  • , 2008-09-11 14:13:29

    Annonymous - 2008-09-11 = I think the "compartmentalization" of other sporting events most certainly apply here. You say that Women’s leagues exist to create opportunities in which they can safely compete with their peers. Well, the argument to that is that the ASANA "A" division team would most likely ’easily’ beat a NAGAAA "D" and many "C" division teams. Which would make their skill levels the same... however, those MEN players with the same skill level are still not allowed on that Women’s team? - If you are talking physical skill - why have upper division women’s teams? But, you are saying that "Men’s teams" should open up to Women as skill allows? (that doesn’t make sense) When you say peers, I would assume you mean "skill level" not gender - otherwise, if it is just to play with other women - that’s exclusive. Same goes with age requirements - if they have ’physical limitations’ why not play in a lower division of play? Or, is it that they want to play with people of their same experience and age range? - Most of the seniors, I’ve talked to, it’s the latter. Also, nice that you completely forgot to mention the other ’compartmentalizations’ that were mentioned - geography? race?My view is (and I realize this is different than some) is that the GSWS is NOT only about the skill and the WINNING, it is also about being part of a community and celebrating that with your peers within that community. I think that there is merit to letting women play exclusively with women or seniors play with seniors or people of specific ethinic backgrounds play together, etc. - not because of the skill level, but becasue there is a bond that is built and it is about a celebration of who they are.check out the website for the black softball circuit: NO - I don’t know their requirements of play or registration (nor do I care) The point is that just from the website you can tell that they their league is about the sport, but also about community and coming together. In a nutshell, why does it matter what requirements the GSWS has in regards to who can play? It is a fantastic vehicle for the GLBT community to come together outside of bars, drugs, etc. and play a recreational sport as a group.

  • , 2008-09-12 07:15:59

    It seems from the above comments that most people want the two straight player limit eliminated.I agree that the time to do so has come. Thirty plus years ago when NAGAAA was founded it was often dangerous for gays to be "out". Although there si still hatred and discrimination, gay people are much more accepted. NAGAAA already ahs restrictions that for th emost part preclude stacking a team with "ringers". With the exception of A division players must be rated in a complicated rating system of skills according to their level of competition ro the teams will be severely fined. Also all GSWS participants must participate in a certain percentage of league games. The GSWS is a highly publicized gay sports event. Straight players who participate are assumed to be comfortable participating in a self-identified gay event. NAGAAA is appearing to participate in reverse discrimination. A few years ago when the GSWS was in DC, I participated in a protest committee. I believe it was Houston that protested that Atlanta had too many straight players. Three palyers were called into question by 11 strangers. One palyer did nto come to the GSWS but the manager testified that he slept with that player. the other two players both stated they were gay and one was clearly annoyed about being questioned by strangers. Reports of this leaked to the mainstream media (New York Post and Jim Rome’s radio show).The time has come to end this practice.

  • , 2008-09-12 09:44:04

    Gay. Gay. Gay. I attend the Gay softball world series to be with the Gays. If you want to play on a straight team, there are numerous local and national options available to you. Just Google search national softball tournaments, choose one, and have a blast. I’m choosing the Gay one - so I can hang with the gays.

  • , 2008-09-12 23:08:59

    We as gay players should be ashamed for all this non-sense.We sit here and fight for our rights as gay men(marriage equal rights for all)and then a team who has been to 3 straight WS with the same exact players being questioned on the same exact team now being questioned and how come now? why ???? Cause they finally played up to potential ?? Non-sense all in attendance know that there was only one reason D2 was protested this time around and it was because they kicked Atlanta Mudcats ass all over that field.Simple lets not sit here and be all mighty about the 2 "Hetrosexual" players rule, they were looking for an excuse for there performance on the field.If the shoe was on the other foot we wouldn’t be having this discussion and everyone of the players in the A divison know this.We fight for exceptance in this country and if these players are bi-sexual or questioning we as a community have scared them for life,think about it, Being a FAG and told you can’t play on a quote"STR8" team because of that, WOW that would be headlines once the media got a hold of that.And to hear that these player don’t care about about the Gay league or the gay players,PLEASE if they didnt care then WHY would they spend thousand upon thousand of dollars to attend these events?? As for NAGAAA who are the representing ??themselves and there views thats who. if they were fighting for the the rights of the GLBT community then things would of changed years ago.I don’t think they represent vast majority of the competitive players view.We have leaders that are not leading for the rights and the good of our community but living in the past.NAGGA as a whole needs to change as the community changes, they are so far behind the times, I’m disgraced to be a gay man and have things that went on during that week in Seattle.And to the person who said the STR8’s would take over this league what a non-sense statement the only straight people that I have ever known to play in the Gay league are brothers,friends or famliy members simple. Your not going to find a straight man off the street that will play in this league just because they want to play softball we all know that. Pole the staright players of NAGGA OH wait we dont ask that questions anymore unless you loose and can’t take your ass whooping like a man. It’s time for change and I hope San Francisco will once again take the lead, As a founder memeber of Gay softball its time for EVERY league to fight, we want to be treated as equals well lead the way and make a statement, IT WAY OVER DUE NAGAA

  • , 2008-09-15 16:50:00

    I’m not ashamed at all to be a gay man - or of this situation. I think that the gay/straight rule is AWESOME. I refuse to be ashamed because I want to spend my time/vacation/and money on recreational time spent with others of the GLBT community. Here’s an idea - instead of telling a team that got beat by a team of straight guys to take their ’ass whooping’ like a man - why not ask the D2 team to take their punishment for CHEATING like a man. While you may not agree with the rules - the fact remains that D2 broke ’em. OK, fair point that it may have come in a year that they were playing better than they normally do - but, no matter the reason, someone had enough balls to finally step up and call ’em out. I’m also reading posts on here that it’s sour grapes and that other A teams have more than 2 straight players - if everyone knows that, then for a small protest fee, D2 (or any other A team and the commissioner of SF) could have done the exact same thing to all of these "other teams" and busted the whole thing open. There is no shame with the rules - SHAME on the people who break the rules and SHAME on the poeple who want to blame the system when they break those rules. If ya don’t like the rules, CHANGE them, everyone acts like this is a ’board’ of NAGAAA that makes the rules... it’s not. All of the member cities get a vote. And those cities get to put things on the agenda for each meeting. CHANGING a rule via a process is one thing... JUST CHEATING and then saying "oh, we did this to prove a point" <-- THAT is a LAME AS* EXCUSE of people who have gotten caught. Or we’re suddenly going to let those that cheated off with "they shouldn’t be punished because of the ’timing’ of the protest?" LAME. (I’d be pissed to if I got beat by a team cheating - why would I wast time protesting if I beat a team trying to cheat - that’s drama my team wouldn’t need - plus, losing would seem as if it were it’s own punishment for people who have broken the rules.) I agree with the previous post that says there should be no reason to be ashamed to want to spend time at a "recreational" event with people in your community. It’s not like this event comes with prize money, 401k’s or benefits... it’s a gay event... for the gays. (Just like the senior tournaments are for those of a certain age and the Native American World Series are for the indiginous folks, and so on and so forth... Yeah, we fight for acceptance - but we should be able to maintain an identity and have events that celebrate "US" and are for "US" as well. There are so many "holier than thow FAGS" who respond to these posts to say "oh, this is wrong" but then that don’t admit that they purposefully, they spend their money at GAY owned businesses or go to GAY bars to find GAY people and go on GAY vacations (rodeos, cruises, resorts) or travel across the country to celebrate "Pride" in a "GAY" city or post internet ads to find a hook up on a "GAY" site. <-- Reality check... by doing those things, you are creating and celebrating a commuinity that you feel safe in and are willing to support. This GSWS issue is NOT different - true, many of the aforementioned would allow straight folks to attend - but that’s not why they exist. They exist for the GLBT community to retain their identities and heritage. The GSWS does that as well.

  • , 2008-09-15 17:26:12

    So, I’m just checking - for those that want the rule changed, WHY have a NAGAAA (North American Gay Ameteur Athletic Alliance) at all? Why host a Gay Games or Out Games? If we all should just be playing with the str8 athletes then why have these organizations or events at all? If it’s just about playing a game/winning a trophy and skill level, then the existance of any of these organizations or events is really moot, right? In fact, why label anything ’gay’ if we are trying for all this "acceptance". (Gay Rodeos? No need, right, just out yourself to those Texan Cowboys on the circuit, I’m sure you’ll get an invite to dinner with his family? Gay Cruises? Forget ’em - why not sail the seas next to the honeymooning couple from Iowa that stares and ridicules you for watching the sunset hand in hand with your partner of 10 years? Gay Pride? Really, how passe’? Gay B&B’s? Why can’t we sleep in the same hotel with the Str8’s? Gay Beaches? You can get sand in your Speedo just as easy next to a family from the ’burbs. Gay Bars? Why do we need ’em, we should be able to just walk in to any bar and ask a man for his # and expect acceptance. I mean, according to some of the comments here, there isn’t hatred towards the gays anymore. These all seems like logical steps to me. Abolish all gay things, ’because’ we don’t "need" them anymore - the world is perfectly accepting. Or those people living in ubber gay/accpeting areas of the world could step outside their little gay bubbles and realize that - NOT EVERYWHERE OR EVERYONE IS THERE.

  • , 2008-09-15 18:38:28

    Agreed NAGAAA has the 2 str8 rule, some are going to agree with the old out dated rule and some are not. Yes it does need to be changed. Keeping it real! It wasn’t just the Atlanta Mudcats, and Hartwell from the Houston Force,Cedric from Dallas was involved along with every other cheating "A" team at the series that participated in the witch hunt by donating money to the Atlanta Mudcats because Atlanta did not have the money to begin the protest. What a joke!!! Now for all of you that are singing NAGAAA’s glory for their dealing in the shady protest.. The real deal is NAGAAA is having 501(c)Issues with their Non-Profit status - all Atlanta and the rest of the "A" team queens did was expose NAGAAA’s dirty laundry. Why don’t you take a moment and read The Instruments of Governance - NAGAAA Open Softball Division, Inc. Yes NAGAAA has the 2 str8 quota - but look at NAGAAA’s Articles of Incorporation and purpose of the Non-Profit: 3.02 To be a nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of amateursports competition, particularly softball, for all persons regardless of age,sexual orientation or preference, with special emphasis on the participationof members of the Gay Community: and to otherwise foster national andinternational sports competition by planning, promoting and carrying outamateur sports competition" Now who’s cheating. Know the background people before running your mouth.

  • , 2008-09-16 11:00:53

    Annonymous: 2008-09-15 18:38:281. Who cares who gave the money? (If money was pooled, kudos to the others that helped out their fellow gay softballers with a few bucks to stand up and fight their fight.) The rule was still there and they still cheated. 2. In the Articles of incorportation it seems to say "special emphasis on the participation of members of the gay community" - with the two st8 rule in place it would seem as if they have acheived that "emphasis". 3. The only "dirty laundry" it seems, are the queens here trying to make people who admitted to cheating sound like they were in the right. 4. Don’t assume that just because someone doens’t agree with your view on the rule - doesn’t mean they don’t know the background.

  • , 2008-09-16 11:17:21

    Idiots... It is a GAY tournament, a GAY organization! DUH! Why don’t you that want to have the rule eliminated start your own organization. Maybe the North American Anything Goes League??? Yes, I am all for "equal rights" and everything all over the world. The fact is though, if you open this up to anyone, IT IS NO LONGER A GAY TOURNAMENT! PERIOD! So change the name, or start your own tournament. I vote for keeping it gay, and when I get a vote, which I will soon, I will vote for NO STRAIGHT PLAYERS.

  • , 2008-09-16 20:18:40

    The beauty of being an American we all have an opinion - You don’t have to get huffy unless your conscience is beating you down. They didn’t fight a fight-they took the easy cowardly way to win, and Roy helped them ("Yeah Roy its’ about time someone get them") very appealing to know the NAGAAA Commissioner is bias. Cause they got their "ASSES HANDED TO THEM" str8 or gay Atlanta is a good hitting team unfortunately,that day they left their bats in Atlanta. Its a hitting game! you don’t hit you don’t win bottom line - gay or str8. Nothing was proven,but theirs certainly a lot of assuming and judging going on. D2 did not stop Atlanta from playing their game,Atlanta took themselves out of the game-and it was certainly not the first time the two teams have played against each other. Everyone knows what the real deal is - the rule is the only thing fueling the hype-if things were reversed and Atlanta won we wouldn’t be having this debate. And those that keep saying they believe in "equal rights" you are full of it you are just as racist as they come - who are you trying to convince? that’s like saying I only date "Asians" At any rate, who cares? what people do in their bedrooms is their business, that should not have any affect on anything at all. Okay! so if the rule is a problem for some of the gay softball communities why does the rule exist at all? Why isn’t it exclusively gay and not allow any str8’s? Str8 people are not just "ANYONE" Mr I believe in "Equal Rights". They are our brothers, sisters, cousins, and you do have those in your family don’t you, what do you call them oh "ANYONE" don’t be so full of yourself with this high and mighty attitude. These queens will have a problem regardless of what goes on. It’s amazing how come their wasn’t this much dialogue during the "WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE THE "A" DIVISION BETTER MEETING" guess the str8s had something to do with that too. Why don’t we stop bitching about the rule,and lets find a solution to this. The rule is what it is, and every team out their have broken the rules so keep it real. How can we turn this situation into a positive why don’t we talk about that.We all either agree or disagree with the rule so need to continue beating that dead horse. Now is the time since we’re all using this venue to communication behind these close walls - to find a solution. LET’S TALK ABOUT FIXING THE PROBLEM NOT BELABORING "rule"

  • , 2008-09-20 13:22:29

    I was actually on the team that lost out of the tournament by the team that was playing illegally. It does not matter if these straight men had played in 6 World Series, or 25, they violated the rules for that many years. My team was also beaten out of the 2006 World Series by this same team. Each player paid a lot of money to travel, miss work, and pay for expenses to compete in the GAY WORLD SERIES. We could have stayed in Atlanta and played a straight team. They have been been cheating for years. It was just a matter of time before someone stopped this group of men(there were 6+ straight guys on their roster) from being an obstacle for any team who has played the entire season within the rules that are set for all of the teams to follow. To clarify, there were several "A" coaches that filed the protest, not just Atlanta. It wasn’t a difficult decision to make because no one knew any of these players from D2. All of the other teams socialize on and off the field, patron the gay bars, and events each night of the series...except the players on D2. The reason no one knew these men is because we were not friends with them because they did not make any effort to socialize with anyone or attend any gay bar or function...Why?? Because they are not gay. Even the 2 straight players on all of the other teams take part in the spirit of the series. Quit excusing the action to fault the penalty!!

  • , 2008-09-21 22:50:30

    If you combine all of the first-person accounts of the protest committee written above, you get close to what really happened in that room - close, but not perfectly accurate. Let me state plainly that regardless of whether you individually agree or disagree with the rule, the protest committee took their responsibility seriously and came to the correct outcome based on NAGAAA’s IOG. The hearing was not chaired by Mike Harwell, but rather the A/B division protest chair. The protest was filed correctly and heard correctly. The specific details of the protest This is NOT discrimination nor is NAGAAA at risk of losing its 501c3 status. Unless you are a corporate tax attorney, please don’t comment on things that you know nothing about.NAGAAA’s rule is very similar to the Boy Scouts ban on gay troop leaders (which was UPHELD by the Supreme Court). As a private organization (which NAGAAA is), they can restrict membership. NAGAAA is not as limiting as the Boy Scouts as it does allow heterosexual players, with a maximum of two per team. There is no way for NAGAAA to enforce this rule itself and therefore relies on member associations to police this rule. Some cities ask a member’s sexual orientation on their registration forms while others do not. Those that don’t ask still know who the straight players are. Given the amount of time you spend with someone on your team (20 games at one hour per game + 5 practices + one long flight to Seattle + team meetings and parties + 2 hours of drinking at the bar after your loss) you know so much about your teammates. You know their partner’s name. You know what they do for work. You know if they prefer Gatorade or water or Coors Light or vodka tonic. You know if they’re GAY OR STRAIGHT. The rule is not there to discriminate, but rather to protect GLBT players: to allow them to play in a safe environment; to allow them to compete with people of similar lifestyles (as varied as the GLBT community is: bear, twink, jock, leather, etc.).Members of NAGAAA should be grateful that an organization such as ours exists and hosts the largest ANNUAL gay sporting event in the world. There are times and places for us to homogenize and there are times and places for us to be (almost) exclusively with people like us. The GAY SOFTBALL WORLD SERIES is one of those events. I attended my sixth GSWS this year and look forward to countless more as I continue to build friendships and rivalries with friends across the country.

  • , 2008-09-26 18:02:17

    Dale-perhaps if you had fielded some of the balls hit at you perhaps you could have helped your team win. Str8 or gay you still got your asses KICKED bottom line that’s what this is all about, its not about any rule, its all the hype you’re hiding behind,maintaining that Atlanta reputation. "If we can’t beat you on the field we’ll just protest"..oh don’t forget Fort Lauderdale, and Houston can’t give Atlanta all the credit. Have you every taken the time to get to know any of the D2 players or are you going by what Deke or someone told you when you played with the Atlanta A’s? You don’t know anything about these guys nor does the NAGAAA committee. NAGAAA did what they thought was best, based on the rule. I wouldn’t give NAGAAA that much credit thought- if they were smart they would have opened up this discussion at the "A" Division Meeting at the World Series. But "FEAR" kept them from dealing with it - so now they are forced to deal with it -Thanks to Atlanta,Houston and Fort Lauderdale. So from the sounds of it, if you had stayed in Atlanta you would have gotten beat in the Str8 tournaments cause according to you you’re team isn’t good enough. A lot of credit you give your team mates. YOU DON’T HIT YOU DON’T WIN - GAY OR STR8 the rule is hype. If this team had been cheating for years why didn’t the protest happen from now. OH! THEY WEREN’T WINNING THEN. Don’t get upset cause your heads were blown up and Atlanta was "said" the team to beat this year. But the hitting proved otherwise.

  • , 2008-09-26 18:19:04

    Quite frankly NAGAAA came up with this rule so - they should have policies in place as they do for the ratings, for situations like this. Maybe NAGAAA should ask for specification of sexually orientation on the GSWS forms from all cities. I don’t know I’m just thinking out loud. But I keep reading the posting and everyone is saying the rule is their to provide a safe place for the LBGT Community. That rule do not make me feel safe - it makes me feel like I have to hang out with one group of people. Yeah back in 1977 perhaps that may have been the case but, certainly not now its the 21st century. That’s like saying "I ONLY DATE ASIAN" OR "WHITE" ------AGAIN HOW CAN WE SOLVE THIS PROBLEM FOR THE "A" DIVISION. If its not the str8 issue its going to be the HOT BAT/ILLEGAL BAT.

  • , 2008-10-08 07:28:43

    It is wonderful to read the passion and vigor of the opinions expressed on both sides of this issue. The game itself is a simple one - throw the ball, catch the ball, hit the ball. And from that comes the joy and the reason we all started playing. When NAGAAA was first established and organized, I truly believe it was for the love of the game and for the love our the community - and by community during those times it was an environment of change. Unfortunately, as NAGAAA grew the organization and the powers-that-be did not change or evolve. Petty differences arose and over time the women’s division branched off to form ASANA. I hope ASANA maintains the reason for this divide and returns to the basics of why we play this great game and have a gay world series. I hope one day as a gay man to leave NAGAAA with my Open team and join the ASANA organization. Be inclusive, encourage accountablility, and be part of a team. If you want to play to win and have good sportsmanship - please remain with ASANA/NAGAAA. If you want to play to win and not exhibit sportsmanship - please go away.

  • , 2008-10-09 01:54:15

    There are so many comments that can be made on the ruling of the San Franscisco team. We can all have our own personal opinions. I for one admire those in the straight community for their support and sensativitiy on GLBT issues. However, NAGAAA has rules that a governing body votes on. There is a misconception floating around that the voting members are all "old school". That is farther from the truth. There is a wide range of ages on this governing body. I am one of them. These rules are all considered and debated over several hours. The bottom line is the integrity on which the people who started this wonderful organization is protected...much like this past admistratiion in Washington DC has protected the "sanctity of marriage". The bottom line is that the team in question cheated...already admitted were two straght guys who had wives and a third that said he was straight, and two others that were attracted to predominately women. That number is now at 5. The rule is 2. I don’t see the conflict. What San Franciso did was a total joke, and the commissioner of San Francisco should be removed from his position.

  • , 2008-10-09 12:57:01

    Well my Question is this. What QUESTIONS did the committee ask of the players to determine their sexuality. And in the terms of Philadelphia, why was our second place C team forced to play a Dallas Team that has a former Oklahoma City League Commissioner who was kicked out of that league and forced to play in Dallas for stealing league money and never reporting it, AND having a former Kansas City Commissioner of that league who was also kicked out of that City for theft and for getting arrested for drugs YET the Dallas League specifically restricted a player who moved here from Dallas from being allowed to play in our league because he used his expense account to pay for his move to Philadelphia and then paid the $2,000 back. This guy could have made an honest contribution to our Cities C team but because of the games that leagues like San Francisco and Dallas play, CHEATING, is allowed. Those of you who know about this know what I am talking about. Our C team took second in the world series because Dallas had two former commissioners from other leagues who stole money that they never paid back, yet we were not allowed to pick up a former dallas board member who did pay his money back. NAGAAA needs to make the rules fair across the board and stick with them for ALL Cities.

  • , 2008-10-09 14:19:24

    Well my Question is this. What QUESTIONS did the committee ask of the players to determine their sexuality. And in the terms of Philadelphia, why was our second place C team forced to play a Dallas Team that has a former Oklahoma City League Commissioner who was kicked out of that league and forced to play in Dallas for stealing league money and never reporting it, AND having a former Kansas City Commissioner of that league who was also kicked out of that City for theft and for getting arrested for drugs YET the Dallas League specifically restricted a player who moved here from Dallas from being allowed to play in our league because he used his expense account to pay for his move to Philadelphia and then paid the $2,000 back. This guy could have made an honest contribution to our Cities C team but because of the games that leagues like San Francisco and Dallas play, CHEATING, is allowed. Those of you who know about this know what I am talking about. Our C team took second in the world series because Dallas had two former commissioners from other leagues who stole money that they never paid back, yet we were not allowed to pick up a former dallas board member who did pay his money back. NAGAAA needs to make the rules fair across the board and stick with them for ALL Cities.

  • , 2008-10-16 09:49:18

    The discussion has to do with straight players in NAGAAA not with the fact that you stole money and ran.

  • , 2008-10-18 02:09:19

    This is not who you think it is crackhead. I wanted the player on my team. He didn’t steal money. If he did he would be in Jail. You must be one of those bitter Dallas queens that keep him from playing. I played with him in D.C. this weekend. He is a good guy. He is very sweet and was fun to be around. He didn’t try to hide what happened. He was honest about it with all of us. It is so funny how gay men are so quick to point out that someone screws up and then refuses to forgive them when they make ammends. Seeing the Mess that Dallas has, and the tantrum you threw in Seattle when columbus kicked your ass in the voting for the world series that you would all still act like this. If he stole money arrest him. WE all believe he has paid for his "noncrime" and given you all the money back. Now if you really want to leave those days behind, then STOP holding up his ability to play softball. He is not yer problem anymore. He is our teammate and we like his sweet southern drawl, his way of making us all laugh, his honesty about all that happened, the fact that he still loves someone who hurt his so bad, and the remourse he fels for what happened. Dallas MOVE ON so Philadelphia can move up.

  • , 2008-10-18 02:20:16

    This board is a way for anyone who wants to discuss things about NAGAAA to discuss them. If you don’t like that Dallas, then stick to your own FAGRAG. Those of us who play in other cities but have friends in other cities got really tired of you emailing the article from your terrible newspaper about Jaymee out to everyone. The kid made a mistake. I can name 100 People in your league who have made mistakes and call names and what they did. Did you forgive them? Did you move on? Why does this kid bother you people so much. He was a stupid kid in a terrible emotional state and he did something that is stupid that most of us would not do. But those of us that are his friends have said Jaymee, I have made mistakes in my life that I am not proud of and I know you are sorry for what you did. We just want him to move on. But if you want to start calling people out for what they did then we can. Ron(Straight or Gay) Hall. Billy (Blow) Stroven, Matt (50 percent instead of two thirds) Millar, BAMA (ASA) disqualified alcoholics of Phoenix, I have played in 15 world series and I have never seen a league that is so bitter and angry at itself. So Angry your A team chooses to Drive to Huston on Sundays to play instead of play under your drama. Dallas, stop throwing stones and start forgivin. And please stop sending out emails to that link in the Dallas voice. No one cares. He didn’t commit a crime. Your secretary was stupid enough to give him a blank check, what he did was wrong, he paid you back. Say its all good, you are not our problem anymore, leave it alone.

  • , 2008-10-18 20:35:40

    ANYWAY! Back to the main issue here...... I have one thing to say about this. First let me start with the fact that I am indeed gay. That being said.... ARE YOU FRIGGIN LITTLE SHOPPING SISSY QUEERS OFF YOUR ROCKER??? Look, yes, we are all about equal rights this and equal rights that. BUT SPORTS ARE A DIFFERENT STORY! MAN UP YOU SISSY QUEERS! There are still too many of you out there! tell me, what would you call the GAY World Series if it was open to everyone??? Yeah, go ahead, open it up to everyone. I know I play in my gay league and two straight leagues and all I can tell you is NAGAAA would surely lose me to straight leagues only if they open it to everyone. For you little sissy shopping gays that say "oh it’s equal rights and only fair"..... GO BUY SOME MORE PANTYHOSE! This is a GAY organization for a reason! Besides, the rule is simple, SO JUST KEEP IT AS IS, OR GET RID OF ALL STRAIGHT PLAYERS AND KEEP IT A GAY LEAGUE! If the world is so open and accepting to everything now a days, then no matter how cool or understanding or gay friendly a straight person is, their straight ass will understand when we KICK THEM OUT of the league! MAN UP AND KEEP IT GAY! DANG LITTLE SISSIES! The ones that want to open NAGAAA up to everything are probably the ones that play against the fence when I come up and I STILL drill a line drive off your teeth! DANG WOMAN, KEEP IT GAY! WHAT PART OF THAT DON’T YOU GET???

  • , 2008-12-01 15:59:38

    I believe the problem is that San Francisco does not have a disclosure ruling within their own leagues. In fact, it is discriminatory to ask a person’s sexuality/gender preference. That said, it appears that the D2 team ignored the NAGAAA ruling. This is not their first NAGAAA appearance. Therefore, they should suffer the consequences.I have known since my first gay league play (1994)that only two ’straight’ members can play in NAGAAA. For cryin out loud, IT’S A GAY TOURNEY!!! Another commenter here referred to the exclusionary rule, ie, men’s leagues, women’s leagues, age group specific leagues, etc. This is a gay league, therefore, the team should be filled with exclusively non-straight players. Just my thoughts on this topic.

  • , 2009-01-11 08:19:03

    Agree with above. There recently was a protest in the straight senior league championships. Again, a straight league, but there was someone 49 years old trying to sneak into a 50 and older tournament. That is NOT discrimination, but it WAS someone breaking a rule. There is nothing illegal about it, rules are rules and they are put into place for a reason. If D2 has a problem with it they should go enter all 50 and older tournaments, all womens tournaments, and the special olympics. We will see what their tournament directors have to say!

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